Date: Tue Jun 3 21:18:00 PDT 1986 From: vaxine!encore!ihnp4!hoptoad!newage (New Age Moderator) New Age Digest #40 Moderator: newage@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) uucp: {ihnp4,lll-crg,well,ptsfa,frog}!hoptoad!newage arpa: hoptoad!newage@lll-crg.arpa Tue Jun 3 21:18:01 PDT 1986 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Tonight: Apology (sort of) Re: Sunny's intro; Sex & Drugs & Goddess Chants Intolerance Re: All That Is, Is Right ---------------------------------------- From: The Moderator (Tim Maroney) Date: Tue Jun 3 17:38:38 PDT 1986 Subject: Apology The moderator of the paganism mailing list has objected to my posting of a message from that mailing list and requested that I always query the originator before doing this again. This is because unlike this mailing list, the paganism list restricts its membership to pagans, whereas there are a number of "I just want to know more" people on this list. I apologize for any problems this may have caused anyone. I do not have time to send queries to people on whether they want their messages run here, so no more traffic from the paganism closed mailing list will appear. Incidentally, the issue of the membership on pagan BBS's is dealt with in Leigh Ann's message below; I'd like to go on the record as supporting her position completely. ---------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 16 May 86 06:14:10 EDT From: "Scott W. Layson" Subject: Sunny's intro; Sex & Drugs & Goddess chants Date: Wed, 14 May 86 00:58:43 PDT From: sunny (Sunny Kirsten) Subject: Introduction of sorts I'm very much a novice, and try to remain open to lots of sources of conflicting info. I tend to explore lots of things trying to see what resonates with my own Being. Perhaps I'm naively blundering along a set of ignorantly chosen paths Doesn't sound like it. Your Being knows, and what resonates with it is right for you. Go for it! I find the followers of Jesus to be a bit over zealous and emphatic that His is the only path You may be interested in _A_Course_In_Miracles_. It is a self-study course in spiritual development. It was channeled, that is, the woman who wrote it down claimed there was a Voice dictating it to her (this happened, by the way, over some six years, ending about a decade ago). On inspection of the text, it becomes clear that the Voice is the voice of Jesus. And boy does he ever lay into the Christians for what they did to his teachings! The Course is written in Christian terms, which turns many pagans off, but the reason is simply that the Course is fundamentally about correcting the errors in one's thought, and Christianity especially must be corrected. ---------------------------------------- From: Tim Maroney Subject: New Age Sexuality Date: Thu May 15 20:44:30 PDT 1986 I do no formal ritual or meditative sexual practices, although I have familiarized myself with them in theory, particularly the Taoist, Tantric, and Thelemic practices. One reason I have not experimented with these is lack of suitable or interested partners for this type of sex. Another is that they seem too easy. `Too easy'? Haven't we had enough of the Protestant work ethic without introducing it into magick? :-) I usually avoid drugs in my magick work as well, for the same reason. I don't in any sense disapprove of them, but I feel that in my current, Neophyte stage of development, I need to develop my intrinsic skills, and not rely overmuch on this sort of accelerator. You don't need to rationalize it if they don't feel right for you. Rather like an athelete in training would not take strength or speed-enhancing drugs, and in fact might burden herself down. Would those more experienced than I care to comment on this attitude, and on the relationship between recreational and meditative/magickal sex? Well, let's put it this way: I've gone through most of my life making life harder for myself so I could feel more of a sense of accomplishment, and I'm getting kinda tired of it. However, as you point out, there may be specific situations where it's appropriate. As for recreational and magickal sex, for me the relationship is ideally one of identity. Sex can be fun *and* a wonderful consciousness alterant, whether one makes use of the formal practices of Tantra etc. or not. BTW in making these comments I don't mean to be claiming that I'm more experienced than you -- just more opinionated. Until recently, I thought everyone was bisexual at the root, until I realized that was a rather prejudiced attitude; now my only "bigotry" is in viewing celibacy as a serious psychological or physical dysfunction. Why do we feel obligated to put down other orientations from our own? Good question! Could it be the nagging little voice at the back of our consciousness that's trying to tell us there's something wrong with us? Don't listen, folks, that voice is full of shit. You *are* perfect, and however you like your sex is the right way for you. Are there any orientations (excluding the obvious ones like Ted Bundy's) which do in fact deserve to be put down? Who's Ted Bundy, and why does his orientation "obviously" deserve to be put down? In any case I disagree on principle: it doesn't. Nor does anyone's. Are people destined to always over-react against restrictions and swing to the opposite extreme, which in reality is just as restrictive? If this is the way we're heading, what can we do about it? It sure seems like it. As for what we can do about it: let's try accepting ourselves as we are rather than changing ourselves. To those who find this a cop-out, I say, well, change yourself if you like, but if you try it you'll find accepting yourself is harder, requires more courage, and is ultimately more valuable (for just the reason Tim is pointing out). The hardest part, for me at least, is trusting that out of deeper self-acceptance will quite naturally come the *truly* beneficial changes. Incidentally, I have nothing against clothing-optional parties, provided they are not self-conscious, and the people don't boast before and after the parties about how non-neurotic they are and how most people wouldn't be able to take it, which is blatantly false. It is, but you may as well encourage them anyway. If they tell enough people how non-neurotic they are, they may begin to manifest it. We all have a core of sanity deep within. A woman I knew once found herself seriously considering suicide. She must have received some heavy-duty healing from somewhere, though, because the next week she was seen wearing a T-shirt that said in big black letters, "CHOOSE LIFE". A few weeks after that, in a shop in Harvard Square, I saw a similar shirt that said in big, hot pink letters, "CHOOSE SEX". I think that sums up my views on the subject rather nicely. -- Scott ---------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 16 May 86 05:22:45 PDT From: lah%miro@BERKELEY.EDU (Cmndr. RYN Leigh Ann Hussey) Subject: Intolerance This is a dialog downloaded from the EarthRite BBS in Berkeley. You should know that SeaHawk is me; also, if you're wondering as some folks did, why I spoke of bushido to Vidar, it's because Vidar is an Odinist and the Asatru conceive of themselves as warriors -- I just wanted to give him "my credentials", so to speak. I'd like to get some feedback on this, and prompt some discussion; this issue has been much in the postings of the local Pagan BBS's lately. Msg #: 484 Date/Time: 5/2|PST From: Vidar Andrewson To: Sea Hawk Re: Christians and Pagans? Dear Sea Hawk, I am writing on what you said about letting Christians have access on PAGAN BBS's. I am totally against Christians gaining FULL access to Pagan BBS's. On Midgard we do allow everyone to access certain parts of the board but to access the Pagan parts YOU MUST BE PAGAN. The reason why the staff of 5 of Midgard has decided this is because we, as Pagans, are fighting FOR our rights and Christians are fighting to TAKE AWAY our rights! If they see how we are going about fighting for our freedom then they will be that much more powerful against us. Look at how they killed our ancestors for not accepting their Christian religion. Our ancestors were tortured and killed FOR PAGANISM! By us Pagans allowing Christians to walk right through our world our ancestors fought for nothing... Don't you see that Christians are trying to bring back the witch trials and burnings? Then, after you've lost all your rights as a Pagan you will be forced to defend yourself against those of the new religion. We should hate them for all the misery they've caused for our people. In this day and age we must be warriors. We must fight for our freedom. By fighting FOR our religion and not giving in to those of Christianity we are not being "WIMPY PAGANS". How do you expect us to win the battle for our rights if Christians know what we're up to? They are not honorable people, history should show you that. I am not prejudice or anything like that. There are a select few Christians I get along with but they will not gain Pagan access to Midgard. I am not attacking you personally. I am trying to prove a point. That we must remember who we are and who they are. In peace time sure they treat you kindly, but wait until our rights are taken away. B*B Vidar & Lycia of Midgard "PAGAN" BBS Msg #: 485 Date/Time: 5/2|PST From: Sea Hawk To: ALL Re: Christians & Pagans This is a reply to Vidar's note to me, but I want others to see it. Vidar, you say a number of things which I would like to address. First, why should christians not see what we do, what we are about? The more secretive we are, the more likely we are to be misunderstood, the more fear and distrust we are likely to engender in others. As I have said and will continue to say, despite the fact that christians do and will discriminate against us, that some christians would like to see us torched again, some christians are NOT ALL christians, and we need not stoop to their tactics of discrimination, fear-mongering, intolerance, slandering, and other bullshit. What are we, if we use the very methods we decry in them? You say, "We should hate them for all the misery they've caused our people." Is there not enough hate in the world, Vidar? Do not the christians you despise hate enough? As the conflict in Northern Ireland continues to prove, hate and war are no way to make peace. Is it not bad enough that humankind is on the brink of destroying itself, without us (who are supposed to be a healing, positive community) contributing to the conflict? You say, "In this day we must be warriors. We must fight for our freedom." As a student of bushi-do, I can tell you that the best way to fight is not to. If you put up a shield, you are saying to the world, "I dare you to attack me". The response to those who would spread fear of us by lying about us is to publish the truth about us, not to lie about them in turn. The best defense is to turn aside attack, not stop it cold -- this way, the defender need not suffer the shock of stopping the attack, and the attacker at the very least fails in his attack (at most, he will destroy himself). Let their own hate and anger ruin them; let us not be ruined also. Dear brother, I am not advocating christianity, I am not advocating ways of anger and fear, I am not advocating the patriarchal strictures that have despoiled the Mother Earth. But I am not hiding either; I have published and defended my paganism on Usenet, where it may be seen by hundreds. [continued next message] Msg #: 486 Date/Time: 5/2|PST From: Sea Hawk To: ALL Re: contined from 485 Call me a wimp if you like, Vidar, but I am not hiding in my own super- righteous ghetto; I am contributing to the sharing of truth. You say: "I am not attacking you personally. I am trying to prove a point. That we must remember who we are and who they are. In peace time sure they treat you kindly, but wait until our rights are taken away." Who we are is a healing people. Who they are is a misguided people. We must make damn sure that it does not stop being "peace time". It us up to us; we cannot expect them to initiate peace when they have no idea what we are up to. Yes, we must defend ourselves, by proving that we are not killers, not haters, not evil people, and we cannot prove that by hating. We must prove by our actions that we are a whole people, a strong community of loving people. We must be strong; we must not weaken ourselves by hating. When I was a child, I met an old Jewish woman who had been imprisoned by the Nazis. I was talking about a girl who was "my enemy" at school, and how much I hated her. The wise old woman, the Crone, told me, "Never hate. Hate will kill you." And indeed, those who hate will be consumed by it, as history has shown. I cannot think of anyone who would be more justified in hating than that old woman; and yet she did not hate. What does that tell you? As you can see, I feel strongly about this. I cannot stress it enough. The only way to keep peace is to make it. Remember that when the true warrior kills another person, the warrior dies also; any sensei will tell you that. May Freyja bless you, Vidar, and heal your anger. May Odin bring you insight and true wisdom. It is May; the dark time of the year is passed; let us bring the summer light into the dark places. Blessed be, SeaHawk ---------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 16 May 86 16:12:14 PDT From: ihnp4!sysvis!george (George Robertson) Subject: Re: Objections to "All That Is, Is Right" > Someone (Owen Rowley, I think...) has put forth the notion that everything > that happens is somehow appropriate. I simply can't buy it. Why not? > I have several reasons. > To begin with, it strikes me as a cop-out. If one can't explain why bad > things happen, then simply find a way to label any- and everything as good, > and all the trouble will vanish. Right? Wrong! I fail to see how > relabelling something changes its nature. Ken has raised an interesting point here, and so has (Owen Rowley?) Namely that of classifying observed events in this material universe. Good? or Bad? The entire idea of good and bad is placed on an event by the **OBSERVER** of that event. There is an individual (personal) filter, which we ourselves set up, that ascribes values to events. For lack of a better name, I will call it the "Survival Filter" (SF). When we are very small children, in the material universe, we are born with a basically blank SF. As we grow, we "learn" (set into SF), those things which we adjudicate (tag) to be detrimental or helpful to our basic material survival. (Holding hot coals, eating ice cream, etc.) Whenever we observe an event in this world, we immediately filter the observance through our own SF's to decide whether it is "good" or "bad" for us. i.e. We ourselves decide whether our own survival in the material universe is threatened via our own SF filters. Most importantly, remember, an event itself has no inherent good or bad qualities. It has only that value which we ascribe to it. Good, or Bad. Some folks have a very hard time remembering that their own SF is different from all other SF's and because of this, try to recruit others who now believe differently. Is this good or bad? To stand firm for either goodness or badness in all events is some sort of aberration in a person's SF mechanism. It is no longer able to decide on the survival value of unique events, it is now filtering all events in the same way. Perhaps the programmer can fix the code so this won't happen. George Robertson. Simple observer. ...!ihnp4!sys1!sysvis!george --------------------- End of New Age Digest ---------------------